Daniel’s 4th Beast Isn’t Rome


We have just reviewed the Apostle John’s elimination of a revived Roman Empire as the Antichrist’s kingdom in the 17th chapter of the Book of Revelation. This means that the 4th beast kingdom in the Book of Daniel cannot be Rome because they are both writing of the same end-time kingdom. Daniels’ 4th beast becomes purely a future kingdom.

Knowing this, we would expect to find clues within Daniel’s description of this 4th kingdom. So, let’s have a look as we consider a few of the contextual clues within the passage concerning Daniel’s 4th beast in chapter 7 of his Book.

The context of Daniel 7. The 4th beast is described as having ten horns.

“After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

[Daniel 7:7 NASB]

This is also how the Antichrist’s future kingdom is described in Revelation 12:3 and 13:1. It tells us that the ten horns are ten kings who will reign in the future during the time of the final beast kingdom. In fact, they will, at one point, reign with the Antichrist.

“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

[Revelation 17:12 NASB]

Therefore, if this 4th beast was Rome, the ten kings and the Antichrist would have already made their appearance and the Book of Revelation would be wrong about these things happening in the future.

The Daniel 7 timeline. Additionally, we can know that the 4th beast is the future Antichrist’s kingdom by the progression of events in Daniel 7. There are many end-of-days timelines in Prophecy and this is one of them. The first 7 verses of the chapter establish a historic timeline of the rise and fall of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. In verse 7 we read about the ten horns we’ve reviewed above. Then, in verse 8, while Daniel is considering these horns, he then goes on to write of the Antichrist’s rise, reign and destruction followed by the reigning of the Ancient of Days, or God, when the saints take possession of it [Dan 7:22]. These things will happen upon Christ’s Return. The first 14 verses are a timeline; a detailed sequence of events from the reign of Babylon to Christ’s kingdom on the earth.

Daniel also says this of the 4th beast:

Daniel 2:40-44 NASB “Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.

This kingdom will break and shatter the previous three kingdoms mentioned.

[41] “In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. [42] “As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

It is my contention that Rome simply does not fit the description of a brittle and divided kingdom. Rome was arguably the most powerful kingdom the world has ever known.

[43] “And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.

This is an interesting statement and the subject of another study.

[44] “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Again, Daniel is clearly placing the 4th beast kingdom on the earth in the day that Christ returns.

Holy name dropping. In addition to this, simply consider that although the first 3 beast kingdoms in Daniel are identified by name in Scripture as Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, the 4th is never named. It is only named Rome by the uninspired passage heading in chapter 2.

The ram and the goat. Further evidence of the 4th beast kingdom being purely the future kingdom of the Antichrist occurs in Daniel chapter 8. This chapter is about Daniel’s vision of the ram and the goat. We are told in the text that the Ram is the Medo-Persian Empire that is defeated by Greece, which is the goat. Let’s pick up the action in verse 20.

“The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia. “The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king. “The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power. “In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.

[Daniel 8:20-23 NASB]

In verse 23, right after we are told that Greece will be broken up into four kingdoms, we are immediately taken to “the latter end of their kingdom or the latter period of their rule” as the NASB translates. This begs the question: whose rule? It is the rule of two of the four horns, or kingdoms, that arise out of Greece. They are called the kings of the north and the south and they ruled in the Middle-East out of the broken Greek Empire. Through Daniel 8:20 to the end of the chapter, he completely skips over any mention of Rome. In fact, Daniel chapter 11 details the activities of these two kings from the beginning of their rule all the way until the time of the end when the warring action between these two kingdoms resumes [Dan 11:40]. Rome reigns during the transitional “gap” which occurs from verses 36 – 40. This is the transition from the events at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes to the rule of the Antichrist or the near/far fulfillment of Prophecy. It is also important to note that the above Scripture says these two kingdoms will again be in power before the Antichrist arises. I will shed more light on this when we examine the text concerning King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the statue below.

The abomination of Antiochus Epiphanes. The phrase “Abomination of Desolation” has become a familiar term in Bible prophecy. It first appears in Daniel’s writing.

“Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

[Daniel 11:31 NASB]

Some scholars believe that Antiochus Epiphanes completely fulfilled this prophecy when he razed Jerusalem and stopped sacrifice in the Jewish temple in 167 B.C. Although Antiochus did stop the daily sacrifice and set up a statue of Zeus to be worshipped, the language doesn’t reflect total fulfillment by him but only partial at best. Again, it is a near/far Prophecy. Let’s look at how Daniel describes the horn in verses 9 through 11.

Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.

[Daniel 8:9-11 NASB]

This is similar to how the dragon is defined in Revelation, the dragon being Satan, who took a third of Heaven with him into rebellion against God.

Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

[Revelation 12:3-4 NASB]

Certainly we can agree that it was not Antiochus Epiphanes who took a third of heaven with him into rebellion against God. It is reminiscent of Revelation 13:2 which tells us that the Antichrist’s power will come directly from Satan. Also, as the NASB puts it in verse 11,

It [the little horn or the Antichrist] even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host.

[Dan 8:11 NASB]

Who is the Commander of the host? It is none other than Jesus Christ [Jos 5:13-15; Rev 19:11-14]. It is my sincere doubt that Antiochus, a pagan, held himself to be equal with Christ since Christ had yet to walk the earth. Finally, Jesus taught his disciples about the Abomination of Desolation as an event that was to take place in the future in Matthew 24:15. Therefore, Daniel’s prophecy was not fully fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes (near/far). Daniel, also, places this event after the death of Christ in the famous Seventy Weeks prophecy in chapter 9 [Daniel 9:26].

First Dream of Babylon. I mentioned above that King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the statue of kingdoms sheds light on the idea that it is the Middle-Eastern kingdoms of the north and the south where Daniel wants us to focus our attention [Daniel 11]. Let’s read through the passage.

Daniel 2:31-36 NASB “You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. [32] “The head of that statue was made of fine gold,

Although there where world empires before Babylon, Babylon is the head of gold since King Nebuchadnezzar was dreaming about his own kingdom [Dan 2:36-38].

its breast and its arms of silver,

Medo-Persia is the breast/chest and arms of silver [Dan 2:39; 8:20]. Interestingly, it is described as the chest and two arms, three body parts. Daniel 7:5 describes Medo-Persia as a bear with three ribs in its mouth perhaps underscoring a reason why it was described as three body parts in the statue as well.

its belly and its thighs of bronze,

Greece is the belly/middle and two thighs [Dan 2:39; 8:20]. It is here that it gets interesting. As we learned above, the Greek Empire was broken up into four kingdoms at its height upon the death of Alexander the Great. So why, then, is Greece described as three body parts, a middle and two thighs? Daniel gives us the answer in chapter 11. The middle is Greece at its height in the days of Alexander while the thighs represent the kings of the north and the south, both of whom came out of the broken Greek Empire. Greece was split into four kingdoms upon the death of Alexander the Great by his generals. They were Macedonia, Asia Minor, Syria and Egypt [Dan 8:8, 8:22; 7:6]. Two of the kingdoms located in the Middle-East went on to war with each other for almost 200 years. These were the kings of the north and south [Dan 11:1-35]. The king of the north (Aram, or Syria) was Seleucid and his progeny. The king of the south (Egypt) was Ptolemy and his progeny. I believe Daniel is purposely keeping our attention in the Middle-East by following the action of these two kingdoms because he is giving us the geographic location of the Antichrist’s future kingdom.

[33] its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

Here is another area where scholars are tempted to interpret the legs of iron as the iron legions of Rome, one in the east, one in the west. Since Revelation 17 tells us that Rome is not to be the revived kingdom of the Antichrist, it cannot be Rome here either. The legs of iron correspond specifically to the future kingdom of the Antichrist. The 4th beast kingdom, as we saw earlier, is described as having teeth of iron. This kingdom is a composite of the three previous kingdoms, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, the Greek contribution being the kings of the north and south who were located in the Middle-East. As we saw above, history tells us the action between these two kingdoms has stopped only to continue at a future time [Dan 11:40]. When this action continues, we will have then entered into the two legs of iron.

Touching toes. The two feet and ten toes arise out of the two legs of iron [Dan 2:40-43]. Daniel tells us that the ten-nation kingdom will be set up before the Antichrist makes his appearance. By the time the action in Daniel 11:40 starts, these two kingdoms have to already exist. When these two kingdoms arise again, it is then that we will move from the thighs of bronze to the legs of iron.

Daniel 7:23-24 NASB “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.

This kingdom certainly sounds global. And, since I believe Daniel is naming the Middle East as the geographic location of Antichrist’s future kingdom, I am reminded of the current migration of Islam to every part of the world.

[24] ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise;

After the 4th beast kingdom begins to devour and trample down the whole earth, ten kings arise.

and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

When the ten kingdoms are in place, the Antichrist will make his appearance. He will take out three of them leaving him and seven others to rule over the earth after a time.

Beware the king of the north. Scripture suggests the ten kings will be in power before the Antichrist makes his appearance [Dan 7:8, 24]. I believe Scripture also suggests that the Antichrist will become the king of the north kingdom when he steps up into power, though probably not the first king because, logically, it would have to already exist as one of the ten. Biblical action between the two kings of the north and south doesn’t resume until the Antichrist is king of the north kingdom.

“At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through.

[Daniel 11:40 NASB]

Can we really know that the king of the north is referring to the future Antichrist? In verse 36, during the transition from Antiochus to the Antichrist, it says:

“Then the king will do as he pleases…

[Daniel 11:36 NASB]

Which king? The king of the north. Verse 15 identifies him as the king of the north and the use of the definite article “the” keeps the focus on him into verse 36. This suggests the future willful king will be the king of the north. When the action between these two kingdoms continues at the time of the end, the king of the south will attack the king of the north. Daniel 12:11 seems to suggest there will be a period of three years and seven months from chapter 11 verse 31 to verse 45, the ruin of the Antichrist. Knowing of these things, it is my belief that we are somewhere around the knees of iron on King Nebuchadnezzar’s Statue [Daniel 2].  We are somewhere near the latter part of chapter 11. All of these allegations deserve further study, taking into account why God curiously describes the king of Tyre in Scripture as Satan [Eze 28:19]. Tyre is located in modern-day Lebanon. Apparently, Lebanon used to be part of this Syrian empire. Interestingly, another similar description concerns the king of Babylon [Isa 14:12-21].

I don’t believe the Book of Daniel ever mentions Rome and I’m afraid that, as our attention is focused on Europe and we try to revive a dead empire, we will be blindsided for lack of knowledge of what the Word may actually be teaching.

King Neb's Statue

© P2ALM 2011

Categories: The True Revived KingdomTags: , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

55 comments

  1. Try Turkey. Look back at Turkey’s history when it was Constantinople, then Instanbul, then look at the territories occupied by those in the middle east for the names they gave these territories. No mystery as to Greece’s role in the Bible. Greece has always been Greece. You can not learn Middle Eastern history, thus Biblical history, from books written after 1950 by Americans.

    • i agree. i believe Daniel 11 gives us the geographic location of the Antichrist’s rise to power. he’ll be the king of the north which is modern day Lebanon/Syria/Turkey. i think the transition from Antiochus Epiphanes (a type of antichrist) to the future Antichrist occurs from about verses 11:36-40. it’s a near/far fulfillment like most of prophecy. it is generally agreed upon that the wilfull king (verse 41) is the Antichrist. if we go back to verse 15 and follow it through, we can know the wilfull king is the king of the north.

      i find it interesting that shortly after Libya began revolting, the US was supporting Turkey to invade. this shows that the kingdom of the north is almost ready to come south [Daniel 11:40] however it’s not yet time. according to Scripture, the Antichrist must be the leader of this north kingdom first.

      it will be interesting to see what happens in that area over the next couple of years.

      • Personally I do not believe this kingdom will be world wide. There are quite a few times in the bible this terminology is used, but if you look at the affected areas it has always been this area (Middle East) of the world. If you look at what is happening in that region today you can see where that whole region will be ingulfed in a battle for power. The Muslims themselves are batling for power and I can see where someone making a false peace treaty with Isreal will come to power and this will bring major conflict amongst the north east and south areas of this region. You see that coming to unfold today with Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Ethiopia, Egypt, Afganistan, Libya, and Jordan being the major players. I can see where these contries could seperate this area into 3 distinct regions of power.

        • yes. my mind has been changing from a worldwide kingdom to a localized kingdom over the past few years for many reasons. one being all of the action in the Bible has always taken place in the Middle East. however, what i still have a hangup about is that Islam is inexplicably being allowed to thrive in Europe, the US and other places in the world at an unprecedented rate. and with an Islamic kingdom as the top superpower in the future (Islamic Caliphate), one can see how this might empower these Islamic strongholds in our own countries. you probably already know about England. it’s terrible what is happening there… and Europe in general. it’s also happening in the US it’s just that the US is a bit further behind.

          another reason i have trouble limiting it to purely a Middle Eastern kingdom is that Jesus said “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. [Matthew 24:21 NASB].

          we know that the last “tribulation”, if you will, included all of Europe and most of the world – the holocaust of WW2. Jesus says THE tribulation will be even worse.

          i suppose at the very least we can conclude it will surely adversely affect the entire world.

          • I agree if we look at what is happening over in the Middle East as we speak it is affecting the whole world and their (Radical Islamic Cleric) tenatcles are bringing hardship all over the world. In the end though with revelation and Daniel I believe scriptures supports that Isreal and Islamic faith is where the main conflict will be. I truly believe there will be great tribulation in that region that has never been seen are will be seen forever. If you look at Alexander the Great and the term used where he controlled the whole world we know that not to be the case. There were many parts of the world that he did not control, but he sure did control this whole region! Many make the argument that the bible really meant the whole known world, but again that is not what scriptures said so we must look at how, when this term is used and with whom it was used for. Sounds kind of confusing but it is not when you research and see it played out in the bible time and time again. I am like you I have no agenda, I want truth and not to add anything to the scriptures. Just read what it says and learn from the past because in that we can better understand prophesy. God was so great to give us these shadows so we can maybe see a glimpse of the future.

            • i agree with everything you wrote. especially when God names all the nations Jesus will do battle with upon His return and they are all located in the Middle East and currently occupied by Islam. i wish the Church would wake up. prophecy is happening right before our eyes and we are still looking in Europe for an atheist Antichrist. the general attitude of apathy toward prophecy will cause a lot of unnecessary suffering in the future because many Christians even now don’t know what’s going on.

              • I agree that most christians (95%) have no idea and just follow some narrative of a preacher or writer on to what the bible says what to look for in these last days of this age (grace). One reason for this is most of the people who lead us look at prophecy thru gentile eyes and to me the most important view point and that is of a Jew. Why do I say that? Because if we take the book of Revelation the real title is The Revelation of Jesus Christ. There is only one group of people who are looking for the Messiah to save them and that is the Jews. If you are a born again believer then the Holy Spirit lives inside of you and we are not looking for him, but are waiting for His return. Big difference in something needed to be revealed to you and waiting for someones arrival. As for as the rest of the world goes scripture says that none are looking for God and so they just go on living day to day not a care in the world. When we look at end time prophecy from a Jewish prospective and combine that with the books in prophecy (mainly Daniel) things start to line up and make sense. I believe if yuo try to look at this (prophecy) thru a gentile or church prospective you try to fit certain countries and time lines that lead to confusing! Just my thoughts on why the church is some what ignorant on bible prophecy.

  2. Appreciate your arguement above. I was having trouble reconciling the beasts from Rev. and Dan. Now I understand they are not the same beast but complimentary metaphors. This will only strengthen the Islamic AC paradigm.

  3. I was referring to your argument above that proves Rome will not be kingdom of the AC. Have you read Richardson’s book yet? I thought it was excellent. My favorite prophecy book is still Dake’s Revelation Expounded written in’48. Evan then he thought the AC would arise from Revived Grecia. I don’t know if you’re pre-trib but I think one of the best arguments for it is that it will be Daniel’s 70th Week, Jacob’s trouble. God will be primarily dealing with Israel again as HE DID THE FIRST 69. What say you? Dolph

    • i have purposely put off reading Richardson’s book because i wanted to see if God would bring me to the same conclusions in Scripture. i can’t wait to read it, though. since i have finished my research i have listened to a few interviews with him. Dake’s book sounds interesting because, as far as i can tell, i believe i am the only person who has come to the conclusion that the two thighs of bronze are the North and South kingdoms which arose from the broken Greek Empire. i was really looking forward to dialoguing with Richardson about the above article but so far i have found no way to do that.

      i have spent the last few years studying eschatology and my studies have brought me to the conclusion the there is no pre-trib rapture. i don’t believe Scripture supports it for many reasons. i was planning on posting a series of articles i’ve written about this in the future. since you brought it up, i’ll hurry the process. the 70th week of Daniel is the Tribulation and there are many references to Satan persecuting the Saints during this time.

      i appreciate you taking the time to read my articles. keep checking back, Dolph. i’ll post some things about the Rapture soon and we can dialogue.

      • I have a Dake’s bible, and I went through a bible college course using Dakes’ book on Revelation. I do not agree with everything Dake’s says, but it is an amazing resource and after I have come to some conclusion I compare my notes with his. I am also finding John MacArthur’s commentary to be of a great benefit, although I am appalled by his attitude toward the Holy Spirit.

        • i’m familiar with Dake in name only. i do have a MacArthur Bible as my main study Bible though it fell apart (me and my friend call them MacNotes). i have not heard of his attitude toward the Holy Spirit. i’m soon to receive a Founder’s Bible from Wallbuilders and i can’t wait to crack it open!

  4. Don’t you find it a bit disconcerting that the Beast of Rev.17:11 and Daniel don’t have the same number of empires? I thought for a long time that they were the same Beast for they have so much in common and penned by the same Author.

    • i believe Scripture defines one comprehensive beast which began at Babel. this would be the beast described in Revelation with seven heads and ten horns. however, each of the 7 kingdoms that makes up the beast can also scripturally be described as beasts or beast kingdoms/empires. this is what we have in Daniel. Daniel starts with Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdom because that’s the context of the Book of Daniel.

      it is generally agreed that the seven heads/kingdoms of the beast are 1 – Egypt, 2 – Assyria, 3 – Babylon, 4 – Medo-Persia, 5 – Greece, 6 – Rome, 7 – the Antichrist’s Future Kingdom. i’m not sure Rome belongs at all. i certainly don’t believe Daniel even mentions Rome.

      if you’re referring to the eighth empire as described in Revelation, Scripture suggests that the Antichrist will appear after the 7th kingdom is already created. the question is: if the seventh kingdom is the Antichrist’s kingdom, how can he appear after it and rule an eighth kingdom? well, Scripture tells us the seventh kingdom will be in power before the Antichrist steps up to rule it [Dan 7:7-8, 7:23-24]. this is what marks the difference between the seventh and the eighth kingdoms. He will make this existing kingdom his own therefore making it an eighth.

      i hope i have touched on your question in some way.

  5. P2ALM,

    I just read your other articles and finished with this one. I was headed for bed but signed back on to tell you that about 18 months ago I was led to study the latter portions of Daniel again and I traced the Antichrist from the little horn into the Kingdoms of the North and South and finally to the King of the North just as you did. I noted the references to the host of heaven and it’s commander and I also identified the Antichrist as emanating from Islam rather than Rome just as you have. I have never written about it and never really had an opportunity to share that personal study with anyone save my closest friend who didn’t really get hold of it the way I did. For me, your articles confirm what I believe that God showed me. I tell you this because you indicated that you were the only person that you knew of who had come to the conclusion that the thighs of the bronze kingdom are the North and South. So did I. From one student of God’s Word to another, I see it too. I saw it before I read your articles – from my own, personal, independent study – and what you have written has validated my conclusions. Just wanted you to know that.

    I was also led to read Richardson’s book which further opened my eyes in this area. Every Christian should read it.

    Somewhere along the way I read a suggestion that Rome was not identified separately as a Beast because Rome was so enamoured of all things Greek that it was almost like an extension of Greece.

    But I think what really made me really realize it is that the boundaries of the Roman Kingdom do not match the description of the Antichrist Kingdom. Scripture says it extends south and EAST and to the beautiful land. Rome did not extend east – if you compare the maps of all the prior kingdoms and then look at Rome, you will see that it extends mostly to the WEST not the east. Yet the earlier broken Greek Kingdom that became the Northern Seluecid Kingdom covered a vast area to the EAST in it’s day.

    Just adding some additional thoughts to your excellent articles. Good work. I appreciated them.

    Yoke

    • hey, thank you my friend. it is encouraging to hear that you have also come to the same conclusions especially about the two thighs of bronze. it’s difficult to get feedback about these things because not everyone studies eschatology but little by little people are waking up as Scripture is being fulfilled. Daniel 12:4 is truly taking place!

      i have read many studies that say their are 3 kings named in Daniel chapter 11 but after reading through it many times, i realized there are really only 2 and the willful king, as you have said, is the king of the north. we need to be watching Turkey. the north kingdom encompassed Syria/Lebanon/Turkey. it appears from Scripture that Turkey will eventually clash with Egypt, the king of the south. when this happens, the antichrist will be in power in Turkey. The coming Turkish-led caliphate

      i put off reading Richardson’s book on purpose to see if God would lead me to the same conclusions about Islam straight from Scripture. i really wanted to get Richardson’s thoughts about the two thighs of bronze but i have found no way to contact him.

      Yoke, if you are ever in a position where you publish your studies online, let me know. glad to have you as a commenter.

    • I am loving your conversations here. I believe that God has increased knowledge in these last days. For me I happened upon Glen Beck one day about a year ago. He had a giant chalk board and was doing a comparison between Jesus Christ and the Mahdi of Islam. On the show was the author Joel Richardson who spoke about his book, The Islamic AntiChrist. I got that book immediately. Things just started making sense. I do not perceive the Revelation as a hidden mystery anymore and my desire, like you two, is to cause others to understand. Today was a divine appointment. Preach on!

      • yes, i saw that on his show! i listen to Beck on the radio and i have to say i’ve been very impressed with heart and his content… although sometimes i have to tune out a smidgen of the humor. i just read his book Agenda 21. he even talks a lot about Jesus. i know he’s a MOrmon, but i sometimes wonder if he’s saved. i hope that he is. and Richardson’s books are great. i can honestly say they are the first books on end-time prophecy that actually answered questions for me, satisfactorily. zero speculation because it fits so good into God’s Word. i also ordered his DVDs. you preach on as well, brother!

  6. If Rome is clearly the 6th empire in Revelations then why wouldn’t it be the 6th in Daniel? Are we not in agreement in proposing that the legs and toes of Daniel’s Beast are Islam? This is what is disconcerting and it suggests that the two Beasts are two slightly different metaphors. God is not the author of confusion and this is getting a little messy.

    Perhaps the best solution is that Daniel’s Beast is “four” empires as he states and that the 4th and final empire is an extension of the Greek Empire, call it the Islamic Empire which includes the King of the North and the King of the South, Sunnis and Shiites, ten nations.

    • well, there are only four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and the Antichrist’s future kingdom. for whatever reason, God skipped over Rome.

      yes, i would agree that the legs and toes are Islamic and i agree with your conclusion about the kings of the north and south but i don’t know much about the Sunnis and Shiites yet. i’m torn as to whether the 10 nations kingdom will be localized or worldwide because evidence does also suggest a worldwide kingdom: The World into 10

    • I hope this might offer a solution to your question as to why Rome is not mentioned in Daniel’s Beast. Actually, it is alluded to! Read on to Daniel 2:44 “in the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people” God sent his son to set up his kingdom during the Roman empire.

  7. I used to post a few studies here and there but mostly about the gospel and not that much about eschatology. When I first began to actively study the bible I was much engaged in defining my beliefs. I realized that though I had heard bible stories all my life and accepted Christ at a young age that I didn’t really know what I believed. So most of my bible study was, out of necessity, directed towards understanding and defining those things. I did that by reading the bible and asking myself, “What is God saying?” Like you, I also preferred to leave the commentaries alone and anything that ended in “-ism” was to me, suspect. Men often label what they do not understand in order to demonize it. I wrote a lot about what I was learning during that time. I study mostly with small groups locally now and don’t write as much.

    I was interested in eschatology from the beginning but it’s hard to talk with people about it. If you write about it you usually get a lot of comments from people that do not understand what you are seeing because they aren’t studying the same things or don’t study the same way or think the same way you do and they have all kinds of other people’s ideas in their head. I think you set it out pretty plainly though.

    I agree with your estimation of who needs watching. I had not really thought about it in terms of a clash between Egypt and the AC Kingdom but that is what Daniel is describing, isn’t it ?

    I do not remember if Richardson spoke about Nebuchadnezzar’s idol. The particular book I read was focused more on what the Islamics believe and how it compares to Jewish and Christian beliefs using their own words. It wasn’t a treatment of our Scripture so much as it was a treatment of theirs.

    I feel encouraged by your studies that I am myself understanding what I have studied. In return, I just wanted to encourage you because I know how it is to stand out there on a limb with an opinion that is different from the majority.

    Yoke

    • i try to stay away from -isms also. one time someone commented on my old blog and said, “you’re a premillenial dispensationalist”. my response at the time was, “i don’t even know what that means. i just read the Bible”. now i know what it means and i can say i am not quite that. i’m going to post my studies on the timing of the Rapture pretty soon.

      yes, Daniel chapter 11 describes the clash you are referring to. Beware the King of the North in Daniel 11

      thank you and i am encouraged because people are waking up [Daniel 12:4]. i find that most people who do not study eschatology react in one of two ways. they either underreact: they think i’m wasting my time because they would say there are more important things to be studying OR they overreact: they assume right at the start that it is consuming me and i’m searching for something that is unknowable. what useful little generalizations Satan has created! prophecy is a very large part of God’s Word and if He didn’t want us to figure it out, He wouldn’t have included it in His Book.

      actually, one of the non-scriptural reasons why i don’t subscribe to a pre-trib rapture is because what would be the point of God warning His people of the time that is coming if none of His people will be here? it promotes apathy to studying prophecy, which is God’s Word.

  8. P2ALM,

    May I suggest a direction of thought about the 4 beasts/creatures around God’s throne ? God was very specific when he told Moses how to build his tabernacle and how to lay out the camp of the Israelites around it. Why ? Because it was a pattern, a shadow of the real thing – it was a fleshly picture of God’s throne and it’s surroundings. If there is “war” in heaven, might there also be organized hosts/armies ?

    The Israelites camped in battalions – three tribes to a side with Judah leading in the east, Ephraim in the west, , Dan in the north and Reuben to the south. These four were the “leaders” of each side of the encampment. Levi was located in the middle closest to the Tabernacle. Each tribe was identified by it’s own standard and these tribes were identified by Ox, Lion, Man and Snake/Eagle banners. When they traveled, they traveled in the same order as the camped.

    Notice that the four beasts around the throne in Revelation are zoon or “living” beasts and that they bear the same likeness as the standards of the four battalion tribes.

    The picture of the whirlwind in Ezekial 1 is also a picture of these “living” beasts around the throne that bear the same likenesses as the battalion banners of tribes in “marching” formation. God’s throne seems to move with him.

    That’s what I think they are.

    Yoke

    • that is very interesting, Yoke. do you know the scripture references for the tribal banners?

      i always found it curious that there were four beasts mentioned in Daniel (earthly, Satanic powers) and four beasts mentioned in Revelation around God’s throne (heavenly, Godly powers). not sure there is a correlation but i hadn’t though too much into it because the four beasts in Revelation are hard to understand. i like your explanation.

  9. The organizing of the tribes into battalions or brigades for camping and traveling is described in Numbers 2. It mentions that they “pitched by their standards” … ie. the family standards. I think the word “standard” meant a type of flag.

    Num 2:34 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers. KJV

    There is no specific mention in the bible of the symbols on the standards for each tribe however I did come across this statement while googling:

    “Neither the Mosaic law, nor the Old Testament generally, gives us any intimation as to the form or character of the standard (degel). According to rabbinical tradition, the standard of Judah bore the figure of a lion, that of Reuben the likeness of a man or of a man’s head, that of Ephraim the figure of an ox, and that of Dan the figure of an eagle; so that the four living creatures united in the cherubic forms described by Ezekiel were represented upon these four standards.”

    So I can’t prove what I am suggesting but given the camping and traveling directions and that the knowledge that the tabernacle and it’s environs were a pattern or shadow of the heavenly then I think it is a pretty good explanation.

    Judah is often associated to a Lion or Lion’s whelp in Gen 49:9. Hosea called Ephraim a heifer and Joseph’s glory is compared to a bullock or wild ox in Deuteronomy 33:17. So, for at least those two tribes there is an association with two of the symbols of the zoon. I think the “man” symbol would make sense for Reuben as the firstborn in lineage and as such was “head of the family”.

    I think it interesting that the beasts around the throne are called zoon or “living beasts” which of course Daniel’s beasts were not called. Notice that each of the symbols thought to be on the standards depicted normal “living beasts”.

    As I said, it’s an interesting direction of thought. It’s the best explanation that I have seen so far.

    Yoke

  10. I think that Noah’s flood is a good argument against pretrib rapture, too. So is the fiery furnace of the Hebrew Children in Daniel. God seems to save his people THROUGH things … not OUT OF things.

    Yoke

    • and i think that’s a good biblical argument. same with Lot. there’s a difference between God’s wrath and Satan’s wrath and you can’t tell me that both Noah and Lot did not experience persecution before they were rescued.

  11. Hello P2ALM, i hope that maybe you could read my research. I enjoyed yours and it makes sense. you can find my research by clicking my name or going to http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com , have good day.

    in Christ,

    Jon

  12. These verses in Nahum seem to say to me that the fatal wound consist of the people of the King of Assyria being scattered on the mountains and there was no one to gather them.

    How would it become healed ? What if a leader came along that could regather the people from among the mountains ?

    Yoke

  13. Oops .. sorry … this post was meant to go first.

    P2alm,

    Have you ever noticed these verses in Nahum ?

    Nahum 3:18-19 NIV
    18 – O king of Assyria, your shepherds slumber; your nobles lie down to rest. Your people are scattered on the mountains with no one to gather them.
    19 Nothing can heal your wound; your injury is fatal. Everyone who hears the news about you claps his hands at your fall, for who has not felt your endless cruelty?

    Does this not remind you of the deadly wound of Revelation ?

    Rev 13:3 NIV – One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

    It sure does me.

    Yoke

    • that is very interesting, yoke, because it deals with an area that many believe the Antichrist will come from. it definitely deserves more study.

      This One will be our peace. When the Assyrian invades our land, When he tramples on our citadels, Then we will raise against him Seven shepherds and eight leaders of men. They will shepherd the land of Assyria with the sword, The land of Nimrod at its entrances; And He will deliver us from the Assyrian When he attacks our land And when he tramples our territory.
      [Micah 5:5-6 NASB]

  14. Also, P2ALM, have you noticed these two verses ?

    Hsa 13:7 NIV – So I will come upon them like a lion, like a leopard I will lurk by the path.
    Hsa 13:8 NIV – Like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will attack them and rip them open. Like a lion I will devour them; a wild animal will tear them apart.

    Doesn’t this also sound remarkably like Revelation 131-3 ?

    Rev 13:1 NIV – And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
    Rev Rev13:2 NIV – The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
    Rev 13:3 NIV – One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

    In the Hosea verses, the Lord is talking about how he is going to treat Ephraim/Israel because Ephraim is against his helper, the Lord. The prior chapters were all about his idolatry and described him as a prostitute. Does that remind you of a certain harlot ?

    The end result:

    Hsa 13:14b – 15 NIV – I will have no compassion, even though he thrives among his brothers. An east wind from the LORD will come, blowing in from the desert; his spring will fail and his well dry up. His storehouse will be plundered of all its treasures.

    Yoke

    • this deserves more study, too. it would seem from the MacNotes (i call them MacNotes because i have a MacArthur Study Bible) that Israel turned their back on God:

      Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me. I cared for you in the wilderness, In the land of drought. As they had their pasture, they became satisfied, And being satisfied, their heart became proud; Therefore they forgot Me.
      [Hosea 13:4-6 NASB]

      and God would use Ephraim, Israel’s protector and the one they “played the harlot” with to destroy her:

      So I will be like a lion to them; Like a leopard I will lie in wait by the wayside. I will encounter them like a bear robbed of her cubs, And I will tear open their chests; There I will also devour them like a lioness, As a wild beast would tear them. It is your destruction, O Israel, That you are against Me, against your help.
      [Hosea 13:7-9 NASB]

      this is very similar to the time of the end when a Middle Eastern Antichrist will make a peace treaty with Israel and become her protector only to ravage her:

      “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
      [Daniel 9:27 NASB]

      good find!

  15. if we are to believe that the Roman empire is the fourth beast then we would have a total of five kingdoms and that does not line up with scripture! The statue in Daniel is clear on this and where the kingdoms come from, there is no rebirth of a fourth kingdom. We need to read scripture and accept what it says and do not try to make it say what it does not. We must remember in Jesus’s time this is what the religious did to discredit and reject the messiah! He did not fit their idea of what the Messiah would be so they (the Pharissee) reinterpeted the scriptures to mislead many to their spiritual death.

  16. Daniel did not name Rome because Rome had not come about in Daniels time. During the time of Daniel, Rome was a future empire. How does that fact (or the fact that the bible did not specifically state Rome) negate Rome being Daniels 4th empire (or Revelation 6th empire when starting the count with Egypt and Assyria)? Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy your writings and gain from them but I do disagree with some. I honestly believe the 7th Beast was the Ottoman Empire (Islam) and at the time of Johns writing (“and one is” (Rome), and “one will be” (Ottoman) and “continue for a short time” (500 years)). Revelations goes on to say that the “8th Beast” will be “of the 7th” and will “contain parts of all the previous 7 Beasts”. This clearly indicates a return of the Ottoman empire (which is the dream of Muslims, “THE CALIPHATE”). I think it also clearly implys the role of Turkey who is also clearly trying to gain control of the Caliphate (this can be seen today in current evens). However, the 8th beast goes further than the 7th in that it will include parts of all previous. That too can be seen in todays current events with Barack Obamas “lovely Arab Spring”. It is also easy to see Egypts push to gain control of the Caliphate which is ultimately going to lead to a clash between Egypt and Turkey. Ezekial prophecies can also currently be seen with the Egyptian divide in its population indicating a coming civil war that is prophesized to wipe out most of Egypt. The battle between the King of the South and North can also be seen with Egypt and Turkey. I also think we can clearly see Saudi Arabia as the harlot (an example is Obamas bow to a Saudi King but examples are numerous, look at world banks) but what I can not figure out is who is Mystery Babylon. I do think that MB has always been the “RULING CITY” of the “RULING EMPIRE” but I am torn between Mecca and Dubai. Mecca is in direct opposition to Jerusalem furthering the entire biblical divide of everything being between Ishmael and Issac but Dubai is without a doubt, the city of global opulance and influence. I just dont get this part fully yet. And finally, I think we are further along than you seem to indicate. I honestly believe Barack Obama has had a part in all this as he has been instrumental in the growth of Islam and the Caliphate toppling MiddleEast Kings. I think the USA has strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood (which has been working for a new Caliphate since the fall of the Ottoman empire about 1920). I dont think the USA has much influence in any of these end time events other than having the power to bring certain things about, like the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood and Egypt for instance. I think I heard you say the 3 Kings were Egypt, Libya and Sudan but I want to replace Sudan with Ehiopia (who’s Christian King recently died) but even that perplexes me as I think Syria has a very strong connection here also. It is going to be real interesting to see what happens if Assad falls. Lastly, a recent event that is going to have strong bearing is I have heard that the Saudi King, Abdullah is near death. I dont know if that is true or not but Iran will take this as a strong sign that it is “TIME”. I think they are closer to a nuclear bomb than we are being told and I think if Abulah goes, then an attack on Israel may be immediate. In short, I think we can easily be entering the last 3 and 1/2 years of tribulation at least by the end of March 2013. I know their are still some events to come but I think the remaining events can happen almost over night! In all my typing above, I left out the role of Benghazi above but Benghazi is very closely related to Turkey and ultimately Russia. Those events are important.

    • thanks for your thoughts, Tony. i’m glad to know you’re a reader. i’ll answer back when i have time to digest your comment.

      just quickly, when i say Daniel never mentions Rome, i mean Daniel, as in the book, never mentions Rome neither historically or Scripturally. the name Rome can only be found in the uninspired chapter heading. blessings!

  17. You say Rome cannot be/is not the sixth (or Daniels 4th) Beast (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greek, Rome). I make my statement based on Revelation 17:10 – “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.” Johns vision at Patmos was somewhere around 70AD (some say 40 or 50 AD but mid first century at any case). Rev 17:10 meaning is in the context of the time the vision was given to John. During Johns time on earth, “five had fallen” (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece) and “one is” (the empire in existence during Johns life was in fact the Roman Empire). This verse goes on to say “one is not yet come, when it cometh it will continue a short space” (And my thoughts are this is the Ottoman Empire). If the above is not true (Roman Empire as the “one is”, then who is the “one is”?

    The next verse, 11 says “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition”. The Ottoman Empire must continue a “short space” (500 years, till about 1920). And verse 11 clearly says that the 7th Beast (was), then ceases (“is not”) will be the eighth Beast. This clearly says to me that the Ottoman Empire will be the 7th Beast, will cease to exist temporarily, then come back into existence as the 8th Beast but will in fact still be the 7th Beast, Ottoman (which is really Islam). Verse 11 goes on to tell us that the 8th Beast will be “of the seven” which tells me at least parts of all 7 previous Beasts will in some way be included in the 8th and final Beast. Then it basically says that the AntiChrist will go into perdition.

    Verse 13 is really restating the Pslam 83 prophecy.
    I want to carry this conversation a bit further but I am not going to take the time to go look up the right verses. I am assuming you will know what I am talking about. I am asking for help in this as I am not positive of what I think.

    The story goes on to say that 3 horns are ripped out and a small one comes in its place. I think this is telling us that 3 of the 10 Kings “FALL”. I think there are other bible verses that speak of this to. I also think the small horn coming in its place is the rise of the Antichrist. Correct me if I am wrong.

    What is happening right now, I fear the world is not seeing and I think the United States and NATO is on the side of this 8th Beast! Egypt’s Mubarak has been toppled and Radical Sharia Islam has replaced him. Libya’s Khadafy has been toppled and radical Sharia Islam has replaced him. Syria’s Assad is under attack and about to fall. Radical Islam will replace him. I think these could be the 3 kings and if so, the Antichrist will soon be behind them. Can that be right? In addition to this there is also some verses that talk about the ancient city of Damascus being turned to dust and rubble. Tonight’s news was the rebels making way into Damascus and the city is under a hard attack. I saw pictures of Damascus today and it is near rubble now!

    I could speak all night on Revelations as I see the words leaping to life with daily current events. I honestly think the next 4 months are going to be things unimaginable to this world.

    Thoughts?

    • i’m very glad to see you’re on the right track.

      about Rome:

      The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [Revelation 17:8 NASB]

      The kingdom in power at the time of John’s writing [Revelation] was Rome. Since John tells us the beast was and is not, we can remove Rome from the list. John is saying that the revived kingdom will not be Rome. It will be one of the previous five – a kingdom that was [Babylon]. I can’t highlight this enough so here it is again: the kingdom that was will come again, not the one that is at the time of John’s writing. He uses the same sort of language to tell us again in Revelation 17:11.

      here’s a much more in-depth analysis that highlights many of the things you wrote about in your comment: Will the Revived Kingdom Really Be Rome?

      the 3 horns you are referring to are from Daniel 7:24.

      Because we know the Antichrist will defeat this south kingdom, many people believe these three nations, Egypt, Libya and Sudan, are the three subdued kings from Daniel 7:24. see: From the Arab Spring to Daniel 11′s Kings: What To Look For Next

      and the near future is going to be entirely interesting. prophecy is happening right before our eyes and a great many Christians don’t even know.

  18. p2alm you hit the nail on the head” the beast you SAW and is NOT” takes Roman Empire off the table. Went to blazyjon website and he has some interesting information and somethings I did not know about the Islamic faith.

  19. I think leaving Rome out of the picture is a mistaken interpretation, and therefore I agree with Tony Baker’s analysis.

    Here is why I think Rome is so important:

    It was the kingdom ruliing over the Jews when the promised Messiah came, lived, died for our sins and rose again! It was the kingdom in place during Daniel’s 69th week — that pivotal prophecy that speaks of the prince being cut off, but not for Himself — transpired in ROME.

    Further, I think “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is” of Rev. 17:8 is CLEARLY IDENTIFIED and DEFINED in Rev. 17:11: “And the beast that was, and is not, EVEN HE IS THE EIGHTH….”

    John the Revelator is first told five kingdoms have fallen, one is (Rome, during John’s lifetime) — and then “the other is NOT YET COME” — the future Islamist conquering kingdom. Over a thousand years of history, culminating in 500 or so years of the Ottoman Empire. The 7th head.

    Once this stage is set, Rev. 17:8 succinctly states the was-is not- beast “IS THE EIGHTH.”

    The was-is-not-beast is not from John’s contemporary perspective, but from the perspective after the 7th head has appeared, of which the 8th head “is of the seven” — comprising all the territories that have fought over, ruled over, Israel.

    Harking back to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream statue — have not thousands of years played out with the dramatic, universally recognized divisions of the east and the west? Byzantia, then Constantinople. And Constantinople was the capital of Rome. Then it became Istanbul, the capital of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire.

    I think there is ample prophetic room for the King of the North and the King of the South to play out in the ten toes. Viewing the iron legs as the universally perceived east and west divisions in the earth through hundreds and hundreds of years, does not negate or obscure the pivotal North-South conflict of the 8th head (i.e., the rapidly forming mideast Caliphate, and the conflict between Turkey and its allies versus Egypt and its minions).

    If one has consistently interpreted the heads of the beast as those countries that specifically have to do with God’s chosen people and God’s chosen land, how can it possibly be correct exegesis to exclude the very kingdom existent — and in POWER OVER ISRAEL — when, historically, Messiah’s eternal redemptive work was accomplished !!!

    • well. i’m not leaving Rome out. the Bible says the Roman Empire is the 6th beast kingdom. so, it’s one of the 7.

      1. Egypt
      2. Assyria
      3. Babylon
      4. Medo-Persia
      5. Greece
      6. Rome
      7. The Antichrist’s Future Kingdom

      but it’s the 7th kingdom that gives rise to the 8th [Revelation 17:11] so it’s not Rome that gives rise to the Antichrist’s Kingdom. so, the question is: what is this 7th kingdom?

      as you pointed out, John says:

      “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [Revelation 17:9-11 NASB]

      it’s here where i believe John eliminates Rome as the revived kingdom of the Antichrist.

      and so my reasoning is, if John eliminates Rome, here, as the revived kingdom, then it also can’t be Rome in Daniel because they’re prophesying about the same end-time kingdom. and after further study, i don’t believe Daniel mentions Rome at all but skips from Greece straight to the end-time kingdom.

      what follows is an in-depth explanation taken from some research i published: Will the Revived Kingdom Really Be Rome? it comes before this article. if you have the time, you might want to read the whole thing. some of these article are long, but they weren’t originally written for blogging.

      (excerpt)

      The seven heads are seven mountains and are also seven kings. These represent kingdoms as well because a king can’t be a king without one. They are also kingships in that they transcend generations. King, kingdom and kingship can be used interchangeably in this prophecy. History attests to this. It is generally agreed upon for Scriptural reasons that the seven kingdoms, or world empires, written about are:

      1. Egypt
      2. Assyria
      3. Babylon
      4. Medo-Persia
      5. Greece
      6. Rome
      7. The Antichrist’s Future Kingdom

      The 8th king, the Antichrist, will be ruler of the revived kingdom after he steps up to claim it [Dan 7:7-8, 7:23-24].

      That’s why he is an 8th king.

      John then goes on to say that five have fallen:

      1. Egypt
      2. Assyria
      3. Babylon
      4. Medo-Persia
      5. Greece

      One is:

      6. Rome

      This was the king/kingdom in power at the time of John’s writing.

      The other has not yet come:

      7. The Antichrist’s Future Kingdom

      John has just verified that Rome is indeed one of the seven heads or kingdoms. But, is it the kingdom that is to be revived? Let’s skip back to verse eight to find the answer. John writes in Revelation 17:8 that the beast, or the Antichrist, was and is not now.

      “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. [Revelation 17:8 NASB]

      The kingdom in power at the time of John’s writing was Rome. Since John tells us the beast was and is not, we can remove Rome from the list. John is saying that the revived kingdom will not be Rome. It will be one of the previous five – a kingdom that was. I can’t highlight this enough so here it is again: the kingdom that was will come again, not the one that is at the time of John’s writing. He uses the same sort of language to tell us again in Revelation 17:11.

      “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [Revelation 17:11 NASB]

      Again, the kingdom which was in power at this time was Rome. John has just told us that the kingdom that is to be revived existed before Rome. Therefore, Rome cannot be the revived kingdom. Let me take you through this section of Scripture again, carefully, verse by verse.

      Revelation 17:8-11 NASB [8] “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

      The beast is the future Antichristian king, kingdom, kingship. John says it was, meaning before the time of his writing. He says it is not, meaning it does not exist at the time of his writing. And finally he says it is about to reappear and go to destruction. John then reiterates that the beast was, is not and is to come in verse eight.

      [9] “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, [10] and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

      The seven heads are seven kings. Five have fallen before the time of John’s writing. They are the kings of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. Remember, these also represent kingdoms (because a king can’t be a king without one) and kingships as well. The one that existed during the time of John’s writing was Rome. This is the one that is. The other that has not yet come is the future Antichrist’s kingdom.

      [11] “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

      Here again, the beast that was and is not is the future Antichrist and his kingdom. which existed before the Roman Empire. It is also an 8th kingdom because of the numerical succession of its appearance. This means that the Antichrist will appear after the 7th kingdom is already created. Now, you may be thinking, if the 7th kingdom is the Antichrist’s kingdom, how can he appear after it and rule an 8th kingdom? Scripture tells us the 7th kingdom will be in power before the Antichrist steps up to rule it [Dan 7:7-8, 7:23-24]. This is what marks the difference between the 7th and the 8th kingdoms. He will make this existing kingdom his own therefore making it an 8th. In fact, he will make it his own so much so that he will hate the harlot, the false religious system that allowed him to become the world ruler, and destroy her [Rev 17:12, 16-18].

      John is telling us, in the book of Revelation, that the Antichrist’s future kingdom will be one of the five kingdoms previous to Rome. Therefore, it cannot be Rome. What this means is that “Babylon”, as it is used in Revelation 18, is not a metaphor for Rome but a geographic clue to the location of the Antichrist’s future kingdom. Rome is in Europe, not the Middle East. This also means that “Babylon” is not being used as a metaphor for anything that did not exist before the time of Rome. This would include both the United States and the Vatican, two popular choices for the beast. Neither of these existed before Rome, which is a prerequisite for the final kingdom.

      (read the whole article here)

  20. Jon, I’m amazed and humbled that you’ve taken such pains to carefully reply to my comments of 2/1/2013. Thank you for everything.

    What I’m still trying to sort out has nothing to do with thinking antichrist will arise from Rome, or the Vatican, or be an atheistic Western dictator. Prior to writing you, I was already convinced of an Islamofascist antichrist, and I had also reveled in your well articulated articles. I’ve found my own spirit so in sync with the tone of the entire P2ALM website.

    What’s puzzling me relates to whether the Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 visions are indeed the same. And even a question that Daniel 7 might possibly refer to 4 contemporaneous global powers during antichrist’s domination. May I offer a few questions for discussion? And quickly add that your time may be such that you cannot address this topic further. Quite understandable.

    As a presupposition to the upcoming questions, I’ll state that, without a doubt, the 4th beast of Daniel 7, and the 10-toed kingdom of Daniel 2, and the 8th head of the Revelation 17 beast all represent the final antichrist kingdom, located in regions surrounding Israel and/or allied with those regions. In short — the rapidly forming Caliphate is fulfilling these visions, I believe.

    Here are some ‘puzzlements’”

    –QUESTION ONE: Is the Daniel 2 statue really speaking of only FOUR kingdoms? And is Daniel 7 an exact parallel of the statue vision of Dan. 2?

    I can’t help but see five historical eras, but at the same time I know that the Daniel 2 legs are referred to as the 4th kingdom, similarly to the way there is a 4th beast several chapters later in Daniel 7.

    The five count seems to be: 1. head, 2. breast and arms, 3. belly and thighs, 4. legs, 5. feet and toes. Similarly, there are five elements specified (2:35): “iron, clay, brass, silver, gold.”

    –QUESTION TWO: If Dan. 2 and 7 chapters are the same kingdoms, then the legs, feet, and toes must all be one geographical-area kingdom? Is that what you are saying?

    The Daniel 2 statue seems to give a complete chronology of world kingdoms from Babylon, to the antichrist kingdom, and Christ’s final kingdom (stone cut without hands, etc.) –and, if so, why is there a gap (if Rome is not in view in the statue, at all) of many centuries (i.e., from Greece, jumping to Islam and eventually the final antichrist kingdom? So many many warring centuries are skipped, if chapters 2 and 7 are identical (or so it seems to me).

    –QUESTION THREE: If the legs, feet, toes all represent one beastly kingdom (including the warring factions of the Ptolemies and the Seleucids), is there not an inconsistency, or disconnect, with Revelation 17? In the latter, John is told of 5 fallen kingdoms, including one existing one (Rome), of another to come that will temporarily cease to exist, and the final 8th kingdom which is of the 7th (i.e., antichrist Caliphate consisting of the former 1924 disbanded Caliphate type of alliances).

    To restate the question: John is given a complete chronology starting with Egypt and Assyria, leading to Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam, and Caliphate — final kingdom before our LORD’s everlasting one. Is it not compelling to view the statue as also a complete view of history from Babylon to Christ’s final reign — beastly kingdoms that were ALL deeply involved with the Holy Land and the Jews — despite the fact that Rome’s conquered lands were more European geographical areas? The two iron legs as eastern and western civilzations, for almost 2,000 years now, seem a natural continuation of the list of kingdoms from Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar’s day) onward.

    Was not Rome embroiled in the region (even if her conquered lands were more European) when she fought the Ottomans for Jerusalem? The Roman capital Byzantia/ Constantinople became Istanbul. Both East and West have been embroiled with Jerusalem and the Jews — from the crucifixtion of the world’s Redeemer, to the destruction of the temple, the Crusades, the expulsion of Jews in large areas like Spain and anti-semitism growing across the globe today, the Holocaust, the conquering east leg of Muhammed and the Islamists, then Ottomans, the wresting of the Holy Land from the Turks in WWI, and the restoration to the Jews and creation of Israel out of WWII, and the current focus on the Holy Land.

    I think the shift in the statue to two legs becomes a more global focus (i.e., east, west), as it relates to prophecy. Did not Christ enlarge the prophetic vision to a global one in Matthew 24, when He said:

    “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in ALL THE WORLD unto ALL NATIONS; and then shall the end come.”

    Also there is a global aspect to the court of the Gentiles, adjacent to the Temple, not being measured, for it is given to the nations until Christ’s coming.

    –QUESTION FOUR: Could Daniel possibly have been told that the four beasts of chapter 7 WERE ALL FUTURE, and thus a separate vision from the Daniel 2 statue? Here’s why I ask this:

    Daniel 7:1 says that the prophet was given the vision during the reign of “Belshazzar king of Babylon.” Daniel wrote contemporaneously with the reign of Babylon. Yet the prophecy continues in Dan. 7:17, and seems to put all four beast in the future:

    “These great beasts, which are four kings, which SHALL ARISE out of the earth.”

    Which leads to another curiosity:

    –QUESTION FIVE: Could Dan. 7 be an entirely separate vision from Daniel 2, and actually represent four kingdoms ALL CONTEMPORANEOUS WITH EACH OTHER? Here’s what sparks that inquiry: Daniel 7:12 asserts:

    “…the REST of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.”

    If the lion-winged eagle, bear, leopard represent the same ancient geographical areas and kingdoms subsumed by the antichrist kingdom, how is it that the 4th beast here in Dan. 7 is “slain…destroyed…given to the burning flame,” YET THE REST live longer?! “….their lives were prolonged for a season and time.”

    THEREFORE:

    –QUESTION SIX: Is it possible there is a more global perspective to the Dan. 7 vision, encompassing global powers at the time of antichrist (and, of course, including the 10 kings that give their authority to the antichrist, perhaps specifically mid-east?)?

    Is it too far-fetched to see the lion-eage, with plucked wings as a Western power (Britain’s symbol is the lion; the U.S.A. came out of her, with our eagle symbol. And we’re certainly getting our wings plucked these days!

    Is it too far-fetched to see the Russian bear? The leopard (maybe China and/or the Asian powers aligning)? Then the 4th beast, paralleling the ten toes and the 7-headed/8th beast with ten horns in Revelation, as the antichrist system called Islam?

    There certainly seems to be a global, collectivist, antichrist spirit taking a different form, yet geling around hatred of Christ’s kingdom, taking place alongside the mideast turmoil. Perhaps the statue even eludes to these divisions by its reference to the clay and the iron not mixing.

    When Messiah destroys the Caliphate, are the other nations’ lives that are prolonged some of these large areas of the world, their nation names still surviving? Even so — I’m eager to add, there is still a promised blessing, of course, for Israel’s enemies, though the antichrist kingdom alliance is destroyed. How glorious to recall Isaiah 19:24,25:

    “In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.”

    I think adding a global aspect (the Gospel of the Kingdom being preached to the whole world) and not too heavily filtering “only” a mid-east-nations view of Daniel’s beastly kingdoms, does nothing to weaken the prophetic expectation that Islam, and mid-east nations filled with bloody hatred against Israel, will spawn the final beheading holocaust and Satanic rebellion.

    –QUESTION SIX: Do other details of Dan. 7 over-power any view of those four beasts as modern-day symbols, since there are other striking details in the chapter that really do have historical accuracy in the history of ancient kingdoms, not modern ones? Four wings, e.g., certainly remind one of Greece and its divisions by four generals. I’ve never heard what the 3 ribs might specify — but Jon, you had an interesting observation about 1 belly and 2 thighs of the statue. And the beast becoming a man is truly reminiscent of Nebuchadnezzer’s ascent from madness.

    ==================================================

    This long discussion reflects such a myriad of prophetic mysteries! We lovers of Christ’s return are eager to ponder! I am (I think many longing students of prophecy are paddling this same boat:), experiencing what Daniel felt: Achingly wanting to understand, and being “…grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body…the visions…troubled me.”

    More than I can say, thank you, Jon, for this P2ALM website, for your many labors, Holy Spirit insights, and gifted communication skills in helping us to ponder and seek God’s interpretation.

    “EVEN SO, COME, LORD JESUS.”

    • i gotcha. i was wondering if i was understanding your comment correctly. what i’d like to do is answer your questions in an actual blog post. might take me a little time. i have the info, i just need to review it and organize it. right now i only have the weekends so bear with me!

      by the way, are you familiar with Joel Richardson and Walid Shoebat? i would recommend reading some of Joel’s books. these two “pioneered” the Islamic Antichrist “doctrine”, if you will, which, actually, has been around since long before the European Antichrist model. i’ve read both the Islamic Antichrist and the Mideast Beast (his newest). you’ll be blown at how accurately they fit prophetic Scripture with zero speculation… unlike many, many others. here’s his youtube channel. the most encouraging thing to me that i like for others to know is that when i was introduced to the possibility of an Islamic Antichrist, i put off reading these books for 3 years before i told any of my contemporaries anything while i researched it myself because i wanted to see if God would show me the same things in Scripture to see if they were true. i’m so glad i did that.

  21. Jon, please suffer one more rather long reply. Thank you for your patience and receptiveness. George Eliot once remarked, “Receptiveness is a rare and massive power — like fortitude” !

    I did read previously that you had done INDEPENDENT study apart from Richardson, etal, and had arrived at the same Scripture-based conclusions about an Islamic antichrist system. I REALLY sat up and took notice when I read that, and my spirit leaped within me.

    I had watched quite a few videos of Richardson and Shoebat prior to discovering your site. I love the balance you take, your insightful Spirit-led writing, the carefully selected items you include, and the recommended websites of others you list. So I keep telling folks about P2ALM. Just spoke yesterday with a California friend who’s teaching a class. She’s going to give those folks your website info.

    In the future, I wonder how many folks might be interested in a detailed discussion on the mark of the beast — how valid you see the Arabic interpretation of Shoebat’s, that the “666″ symbols actually say “In the name of Allah”, with crossed swords. I believe Walid Shoebat is led by the Holy Spirit to a correct conclusion. But it’s crossed my mind, whether the symbols could even be dual in nature — i.e., admitting to some sort of symbolic 666 as well, in the global collectivism that is forming — sort of a corollary antichrist Babel world system that demeans the inidividual in favor of the godless state and “mother earth” and forces economic woe on those who name the name of Christ. Could the iron and clay non-adhering mixtures perhaps hint at that?

    Also, I would guess a lot of us are puzzled about what city is actually the Harlot city of Revelation. That may not be knowable at this point. I note Revelation details slavery as a part of the whore’s economy, as well as a fabulous trading economy. Neither Mecca nor Istanbul — both cities with seven hills/mountains — seem to fit those specifics, although Saudi Arabia itself still carries out the despicable slave trade. But Saudi Arabia is NOT a CITY.I also read the horrible descriptions of Ottoman slave trade. It was the warp and woof of a vast economy, but to my knowledge slavery is not extant in Turkey at present. I am guessing that some city in the future will rise to become THE authorization center for mass murder, much like Hitler and Berlin?

    Regarding your heart to do an article showing a Babel thread weaving through all the world’s diverse anti-truth, anti-god religious and philosophical – isms. That observation has crossed my mind. And particularly about Islam, that the Kaaba gods had thousands of markers all along the trade routes, and can be traced to Baal? Can, curiously, have spiritual links with the stone that fell from heaven and pagan worship of a stone in the apostles’ day? Abraham left the cult city sites of moon-god worship to follow the One True God. Thousands of years later, THE TRUE GOD, and the moon god of Allah, are still battling it out. Now THERE’S a thread, eh?

    I can only say to you about your planned article: Go to it, good brother. We’re eagerly waitin’ to read it !!! God bless the work of your heart and hands.

  22. P.S. — Might your article on the Babel system include the glorification of death? Evolution makes it the savior! The very essence of our fallenness becomes redeemer in the fit surviving, the others — billions of them — dying off. On glorifying death, I even saw a public broadcast documentary on child sacrifice. At the end, they spoke of the child being taken to the top of the mountain, and taking part in a ritual where heaven and earth meet !

    • that’s a very interesting observation about death. i’ve always wondered at our current culture of death. we idolize the very thing we are most afraid of and uncertain of apart from Christ. we display our fear out in front of us for everyone to see. that’s amazing to me. people actually wear skulls and crossbones on their clothing and put them on their cars. we have stores at the mall like Hot Topic which encourages teens to look like death. we even paint death pink and wrap it up in cute little bows and sell it as Monster High dolls. there is vampire stuff everywhere and a flood of horror films about human mutilation glorifying death. why all this concern? it would seem to be contradictory behavior within the evolutionary worldview that says once you’re dead that’s it… and inconsistency within its own philosophy.

      kind of like death is the clothing that doesn’t quite fit into evolution’s neat little suitcase.

      it’s the same as when someone is constantly swearing and everything is sexual innuendo to them. all of that comes from that moment in the Garden when Adam no longer looked at his naked wife without lust because he sinned against God – when they had to cover themselves. when they were ashamed. we are broadcasting our shame for everyone to know about. we don’t know what to do with it so that’s how it displays itself.

      also, what i find interesting is that anytime a culture has some sort of ritual, religion or myth about the heaven and the earth meeting (sky/earth, male/female), i believe it comes from Genesis 6 when the rebellious angels left heaven and came to the earth [Jude 1:6]. they had children with women. how many religions and myths have stories about titans, demi-gods, half-human half-god beings? these are remnants of memories passed down from the time of Noah about the pre-Flood world and then spread around the world by the dispersion of the people at Babel. i mean, have you ever wondered why it’s “mother” earth and “mother” nature?

      as for child sacrifice, we have abortion. there’s no difference between Incan priests dressed in ceremonial garb standing around a stone slab with ceremonial knives and modern doctors dressed in white scrubs standing around a steel table with their little instruments. same result.

  23. CORRECTION: There IS slavery in Turkey! On a 2-4-2013 comment, above, I wrote, “…to my knowledge slavery is not extant in Turkey at present.” Tragically, according to the UNODC index, out of 98 countries trafficking human beings (THB), Turkey is one of 14 that ranks “high” (as opposed to others that rank “very high”). This is as a transit country. But as a destination country (where sexual or labor slaves end up), UNODC rates Turkey very high.

    Since the early 1990′s Turkey has had one of the world’s largest markets for Slavic women (called ‘Natasha’ by the Turks). The report also states that Turkey is a pivotal player in illegal organ trafficking.

    I am concerned that my error (about slavery not existing in Turkey)be immediately corrected for P2ALM readers. They can find this information about THB documented by “The Scopes of Human Trafficking in Turkey from the Past to the Present” – put out by OSH.

    The prophetic reason that the issue of slavery surfaces, is that Babylon the great, of Revelation 18, has “…merchandise…slaves, and souls of men” (Rev. 18:12,13).

  24. I just began to question the Roman view of Daniel 2. Why does Revelation have to interpreted with Daniel in view, i.e., Daniel’s visions are in light of the finished work of JC at His first coming, while John’s book looks at the finished work of JC at His second coming? Are John’s visions REALLY a continuum of Daniel’s or not?

    • Hi John. yes, Daniel did prophesy about Christ’s 1st advent but also His 2nd [Daniel 2:44-45; 7:9-14, etc.]. yes, Daniel and John wrote about the same biblical world kingdoms. Revelation is not so much a continuum as it is a different, extremely detailed perspective from John. the prophets write of 7 biblical world kingdoms (8, really. the 8th is the revived 7th)

      ~ and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. [Revelation 17:10-11 NASB] see also Dan 7:7-8, 7:23-24

      Here are the first six:

      1. Egypt [Zech 1:19]
      2. Assyria [Zech 1:19]
      3. Babylon [Zech 1:19; Dan 7:4]
      4. Medo-Persia [Zech 1:19; Dan 7:5]
      5. Greece [Dan 7:6]
      6. Rome [Rev 17:10]

      Daniel skips the first 2 kingdoms and also skips over Rome in his book. John includes them all by his description of the 7-headed dragon.

      NOW THIS IS THE BIBLICAL PATTERN: each of them (with the exception of the 1st of course), directly conquered the preceding kingdom, occupied the area of the Middle East and directly ruled over the Jewish people/Israel.

      America doesn’t fit the biblical pattern (I have to throw this in) and is just one reason, besides the many other geographical Scriptural clues, why it can’t be considered as Mystery Babylon, the final beast kingdom, etc.

      as revelation 17:10-11 says above, the 8th king – the Antichrist – will arise out of the 7th kingdom.

      so, if you can identify the 7th kingdom [Dan 7:7], you will know the Antichrist’s kingdom. Remember, it has to fit the biblical pattern Scripture lays out for us above.

      WHAT KINGDOM DIRECTLY OVERTOOK ROME, RULED THE AREA OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND ESPECIALLY ISRAEL? if you identify this kingdom, you will know the kingdom of the coming Antichrist. Then you can fill it in.

      1. Egypt [Zech 1:19]
      2. Assyria [Zech 1:19]
      3. Babylon [Zech 1:19; Dan 7:4]
      4. Medo-Persia [Zech 1:19; Dan 7:5]
      5. Greece [Dan 7:6]
      6. Rome [Rev 17:10]
      7. [Daniel 7:7]
      8. Revived 7th kingdom/future kingdom of the Antichrist [Daniel 7:7; Revelation 17:11]

      i’m also curious… what was it that caused you to start questioning Roman view of the Book of Daniel?

      • Thanks for your reply. I will study your comments. I question the Roman view for a number of reasons. Most importantly, It does not allow the Rock, the gospel of the K of God, to be ushered in here, but at the 2nd coming: look at the commentaries which take the Roman view. That’s my issue. Did JC come to do what God sent him to do or was the gospel of the K of G a failure? The stone came from the mountain (D2:45) and the stone became a mountain (D2:35). Rome rose to “world” power after Christ ushered in the kingdom. That last week of Daniel will be addressed by John: Daniel prepared the way for JC at his first coming, while John will prepare the way for his 2nd coming. The imagery John uses: is it original or Danielian?

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